50 years of feeding great relationships. this morning, my question. how would nwa rap about stop and frisk? plus, how one illinois town is trying to make amends for justice delayed. and repercussions of the fracking craze. but first, a country on the brink, as the cycle of violence continues in egypt. good morning. i'm joy reid in for melissa harris-perry. we want to get right into the developing story out of egypt this morning, where more than 800 people have been killed since wednesday and thousands injured in clashes between the military and supporters of deposed president, mohamed morsi. this morning, hundreds of morsi

supporters are barricaded into a cairo mosque. the military has sealed off the surrounding square with tanks and bashed wire. the scene is chaotic, and it's hard to know exactly what's going on, but there have been reports of gunfire inside and outside the mosque. there are also reports that crowds of anti-morsi civilians have gathered outside the mosque, as well as the uniformed security forces. the standoff follows three days of violence between the muslim brotherhood and the military. on friday, the brotherhood took to the streets to protest a violent military crackdown, defying security forces authorized to use lethal force against protesters. 173 people were killed on friday's day of rage protests, according to the egyptian government. and the brotherhood has vowed to keep rallying in the days ahead. the crackdown began wednesday, when government security forces violently attempted to clear out two encampments where morsi supporters were staging sit-in protests and demanding that morsi be reinstated. the assault sparked street battles in cities across the country.

the military-led egyptian government has declared a state of emergency and imposed a 9:00 p.m. curfew in cairo and other provinces. president obama on thursday condemned the violence and canceled joint military exercises with egypt, but stopped short of canceling the $1.5 billion in annual military aid and economic aid the u.s. gives egypt. as the president made clear on thursday, the u.s. needs egypt too much to cut off ties. >> given the depths of our partnership with egypt, our national security interests in this pivotal part of the world and our belief that engagement can support a transition back to a democratically elected civilian government, we've sustained our commitment to egypt and its people. but while we want to sustain our relationship with egypt, our traditional cooperation cannot continue as usual when civilians are being killed in the streets and rights are being rolled back. >> and joining us now from cairo with the very latest news is nbc news foreign correspondent,

ayman mohyeldin. ayman, thanks for joining us. can you give us a sense of what's happening on the ground today? >> reporter: sure. well, all attention and focus today has been on this one mosque near rumsy square. now, rumsy square was the intended destination for all those marches that were called for by the muslim brotherhood yesterday on the day of rage. and what happened last night, as the situation became extremely chaotic, a lot of people went into this mosque to use it as a makeshift field hospital, some of them wounded, some of them women, and at least some armed men. but what happened overnight, they essentially barricaded themselves in. supporters of the military, the military itself, and the police surrounded the mosque and that led to a very tense standoff throughout the early hours of the morning. now, because of that, the people inside did not feel safe enough to come outside, finding themselves in the midst of the police and the military and a lot of plainclothesed people, they said were thugs wanting to attack them.

now, earlier this morning, the military and the police were out there. they came under fire from somebody inside the mosque. so clearly it appears that someone inside the mosque was firing on security personnel inside, and they as a response returned fire on to the mosque and ultimately used teargas inside to try to get the people out. now, after several hours of this standoff, it seems police have taken control of the mosque and those inside have been removed, after that several-hour tense standoff, rather. but right now, the situation remains relatively calm in the vicinity of the mosque. there are no protests unfolding today. there have been no major acts of civil protests or civil disobedience, as some have called it here, and right now the situation is that we're about three hours away from another night of government-imposed curfew here. joy? >> and ayman, can you give us a sense, there have been conflicting reports about whether the muslim brotherhood is, at this point, a fringe element within the egyptian society, or if there is any

popular support for what they're doing? >> reporter: well, no doubt as an organization, they still have their own core supporters, and number varies. it's almost difficult to ascertain, but it definitely numbers in the hundreds of thousands. these are loyal members of the organization. however, the public support for the muslim brotherhood has definitely dipped over the course of the last several months, perhaps even throughout the course of the year that president mohamed morsi was in power. there is now a complete rejection, if you will, to the organization from a great part of the society here. that also has to do with the huge campaign of incitement that has been led by state media and other private channels, who have systemically demonized the muslim brotherhood and its supporters as terrorists. but it's safe to say that the muslim brotherhood's popularity has definitely waned, if not completely been lost, among those who are not members of the organization throughout the course of the past several months. joy? >> and lastly, ayman, do you get a sense that outside of these pockets of obviously violent intention, that generally on the

streets of cairo, are people safe going about general business at this point? >> reporter: the short answer to that is no, and that's because these clashes and protests have been so spontaneous at times, they're almost unpredictable. and as a result of that, people here have felt a great sense of insecurity. in fact, at nighttime, when their curfew actually goes into place, you'll find a lot of neighborhoods setting up neighborhood watchdog checkpoints. and these are manned by local residents of their neighborhoods, sometimes wielding their own weapons. nobody is really sure who they respond to. and many of them are taking it upon themselves to check the vehicles of people passing by. now, that creates a sense of anxiety and fear, because it also shows that the police is not necessarily in control of security across the country, particularly in areas that can sometimes be flashpoints for these types of protests. so overall, the majority of egyptians are feeling this sense of anxiety and fear, and that's what is leading to this tense situation. the police, on the other hand, and the military, have made some announcements about some key arrests today. they say they've arrested the

brother of ayman al zawahiri. he was a notorious supporter of mohamed morsi, and also led a group that many in egypt feel was on the borderline of terrorist activity, if not full-on terrorist activity in general. so he is an individual that the government here now says they have arrested and they are still pursuing the senior leaders of the muslim brotherhood in an taech attempt to try to contain the situation. the government believes it's the leadership of the muslim brotherhood and the organization that is behind the wave of violence that has gripped this country, because they consistent call for protests and incite people to go out to the streets. many of them causing the kind of violence that we've seen yesterday, attacking government buildings, police stations, and churches. so it is a war of words as much as it has a war on the streets here. >> ayman mohyeldin, thank you so much for joining us today from cairo, egypt. and joining me now in the studio is colonel jack jacobs, a msnbc analyst, retired army colonel, and, of course, a recipient of

the medal of honor. colonel jacobs, give us a sense, i think people see the chaos and violence in the mideast, and they think, standard chaos and violence, we're kind of used to this story. but give people some perspective on the importance of this particular middle eastern country to the united states. >> egypt has been important to our strategic vision for a long, long time. we've lost a great deal of influence in the eastern mediterranean, and one of the reasons is that mubarak is no longer -- it's not the only reason. but mubarak is no longer there. for decades he assisted us in controlling a lot of what happened in the eastern mediterranean. but a couple of things are immediately apparent that were in danger when morsi and the muslim brotherhood was in charge of egypt. first and perhaps the most important is the ability, our ability to send our warships through the suez canal. we've got to get from the mediterranean to the gulf and we've got to do it quickly. there's usually a long backup of ships trying to get through the canal. if we needed to get our ships

through the canal, our warships through, the egyptian government let us go to the head of the line. very, very important for our strategic ability to project our military might in the region. second and almost as important is the egyptian ability to let us fly over the country. don't forget, we've got a lot of -- many operations taking place in sub-saharan africa, in the horn of africa. the ability to fly our military aircraft over egypt is important for our sustaining those operations against terrorists and insurgencies in that part of the world. the third thing, and it's extremely important in this circumstance, when you think about our relationship with israel, was mubarak's and this egyptian government's ability to close off gaza and make it

difficult for the -- for hamas, for palestinians, for terrorists, even, to transit from egypt into the sinai and back again. >> i think we have a map of the region that we can sort of show people. i think that's what people forget. the physical geography of this. you know, the egyptian government controls the access to the gaza strip, which for the israelis, is a very important issue, because of the issue of smuggling weapons in and out of gaza, the issue of hamas, and the previous government, the dictatorial government, the mubarak government was, you know, play ball with the united states when it came to keeping it close, the morsi government, maybe not so much. >> and right now the egyptian government is occupied with taking care of its own security and maybe they're not paying very much attention to that area along gaza. but it is important to us and it is important to israel. and when morsi took over in egypt, israel got antsy. when morsi effectively suspended the constitution, they got

antsier yet. so it's important to israel that there be control of transit from egypt into gaza and back again and the military government is going to ensure that that's the case. whatever they do on the streets, notwithstanding. >> and so now we've had some rumbling from some republican senators, and this has actually brought together senator rand paul and lindsey graham, who are not typically on the same side. and they have said they would like to see us cut off that aid. john mccain says, we condemn all acts and incitement of violence against civilians, including those that the supporters of former president mohamed morsi have committed against christians and other egyptians. at the same time, we cannot be complicit in the mass slaughter of civilians. it is neither in our long-term national interest nor consistent with our values and laws to continue providing assistance at this time to egypts interim government and military. but can we afford to cut off that aid? >> i think we cannot. and that's one of the reasons why the president has not said

anything at all about canceling aid, cutting off aid, reducing aid. has made what is effectively an empty gesture for public consumpti consumption, and that is to cancel the annual military exercises that we had with the egyptian military. but there are lots of back-channel communications taking place and always do, between the american military establishment and the egyptian military establishment. that's kind of an empty gesture. making a bigger statement by reducing or cutting off the american aid to the egyptian government will have no practical effect, because gulf states and saudi arabia are -- >> they'll just fill it in. >> and they are, already doing that. they're sending lots and lots of money to the egyptian government right now. but it will be a very -- it will be a statement that will resonate inside egypt among the military establishment, and that's -- that will definitely hurt us strategically. it's one of the reasons why president obama is not saying that we're going to cut off aid or reduce aid to the egyptian

military. >> and not calling it a coup. very important. thank you so much, colonel jacobs. everyone, stay where you are. up next, from the chaos on the streets of egypt to a major change on the streets of new york. [ male announcer ] they say it was during an arm wrestling match that mr. clean realized the way to handle bigger, tougher messes was better leverage. that's why he created his new magic eraser handy grip. it has a handle that firmly attaches to the eraser so you get better leverage and more oomph with less effort. it's the perfect magic eraser

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if you're a parent, chances are you and your kids are familiar with this guy. ice cube. your kids have probably gotten a few good laughs watching his family-friend comedies lake "are we there yet?" or its sequel "are we done yet?" but chances are good you also remember a different ice cube, that was anything but funny. and not only did your parents not approve, they were warned away from the 1998 album that

first introduced him to the world, "straight out of comp torin." that album that just turned 25 was the first from the legendary group that helped put west coast hip hop on the map, nwa. if you're not enough of a hip hop hit to decipher that acronym, give it a google, because i can't say on tv what it actually stands for. but what i can tell you about is the one song in particular that brought "straight out of compton" to the attention of the fbi, the album's second track, which drops the f-bomb in reference of police. i can't quote much of what's in the song, except part of ice cube's verse. "got it bad cause i'm brown and not the other color, so police think they have the authority to kill a minority." alongside the gang violence and drug deals that were commonplace in nwa's compton, police harassment figured prominently in part of their everyday narrative. of course, it's been 25 years, so a lot has changed a little bit. ice cube has melted a little bit. the founding member has died of aids, and the rest have gone

their separate ways. meanwhile, the torch of west coast hip hop has been passed to this guy, kendrick lamar. good kid, mad city, his platinum selling debut was wildly hailed as one of the best album of 2012. and more than decades since nwa first exposed the realities of life in their comp tennessee, kendrick lamar makes clear that as much as things have changed, there is much that has stayed the same. on the album's opening track, "good kid," kendrick raps about a matter with police. "the matter is racial profile, i heard them chart. he's probably young, but i know that he's down. step on his neck, and as hard as your bulletproof vest, he don't mind, he know we'll never respect, the good kid, mad city." that is final starting to change in one major city. and the judge who declared that

change happened to be in complete agreement with kendrick. the matter is racial profiling. judge shirrra shirren ruled that the stop and frisk policy targeted the plaqblack people ie city. of the 4.4 million stops conducted by the nypd between 2004 and 2012 showed blatant disregard for the fourth amendment's protections against unreasonable searches and seizures. she also found that the city's policy of, quote, indirect racial profiling by targeting racially defined groups violated the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. in 195-page decision, judge shine lynn concluded, quote, it is indmisable to subject all members of a racially defined group to heightened police enforcement because some members of that group are criminaled. what she didn't do is bring the story of the nypd's history of racial profiling to an end. in a separate list of remedies, she made a note of quoting, to

be very clear, i am not noting an end to the practice of stop and frisk. the new york mayor michael bloomberg made it clear he has no plans for it to stop either. following through, which makes the ice cube of today as relevant as the nwa alter ego. we aren't there yet. there's still a ways to go. here with me, jamonte williams, one of the most vocal critics of stop and fisk. seema ier, and legal contributor for arise news. sue nina patel, staff attorney for the center on constitutional rights who litigated the case of floyd versus the city of new york, which put stop and frisk on trial, and ara begatto, contributing writer of "the nation" and news editor for color lines. i want to start with you, suenita, because you did litigate the case. what are the results of judge

schinlin's ruling? >> she put in place a monitor that's going to work with the new york police department and all the parties and the community to try to see real reform. what's really remarkable here is that the judge has said, the community has to be a part of the reform process. this is something that's common in police practice cases like this around the country, and that's what we'll be doing. we will be moving forward with the community and hopefully with the police department at the table. >> jamonte, what's been really remarkable has been the vigor with which the mayor has continued to defend stop and frisk. ray kelly, the police commissioner, they haven't backed down one eiota that stop and frisk works and that minority communities either do or should want it. >> i diagnosed the mayor with third term billionaire syndrome for his inability to really recognize what's going on. but i do want to make sure we separate out the thing that allows an officer to stop and

frisk somebody, and racial profiling. they tend to merge that together. the fact that we have a policy known as stop and frisk is an issue. because it's usually just goo police work if it's done correctly. if you have reasonable suspicion, you stop someone. i've been trying to getting out the profiling from the ability to do those things. and if you do that, you have good police work that needs to continue. and the fact that the administration refuse to realize there's a problem is a shame, because there's been other good police work that has been done, and we can't concentrate on those, because we have an administration that doesn't understand the constitution and what it says about being able to stop someone. it doesn't say anything about deterrents, it doesn't say anything about being able to stop anybody at any time because of the color of their skin. and let's pretend that you can say the constitution doesn't matter. and we move that aside, then you look at the effectiveness of it. and if you look at the numbers, the mayor loves numbers, except when it comes to this, but if you look at the data, there is absolutely no correlation between gun violence, murders,

dwuns off the street, and how many stops are made in low and income and black and latino communities. >> bloomberg actually directly contradicted that. see, i'm going to come to you, but i'm going to play from monday, in a press conference, this is his continuing defense of stop and frisk. >> the fact that few guns are on the street now shows that our efforts have been successful and there is just no question that stop, question, frisk has saved countless lives. and we know that most of those lives saved, based on the statistics, have been black and hispanic young men. >> and seema, so it's sort of bringing together the good bloomberg and the bad bloomberg. he's very strong on the issue of gun violence, on reducing the issue of guns ton street, but he wants to credit stop and frisk with that. >> and yet he ignores, everybody here at this table knows that since 1990, violent crime has been down. so stop and frisk, has it been implemented well? yes, in terms of what reduction in crime there has been, agreed.

because let's say you look at the statistics, right, and of all stop and frisk cases that were examined between 2004 and 2009, 8% led to searches. of that 8%, only 9% produced weapons. so, okay. now you're going to tell the mothers and fathers of those children, whose lives were saved because of stop and frisk that their lives are useless? so there is some, you know, there's an argument for keeping stop and frisk. i think the issue that it is raising, which is important, is the reform, and this monitor, he's an attorney. he was a chief assistant district attorney in the manhattan d.a.'s office and this is someone who will act as a liaison. another issue they've brought up is the video cameras they're thinking about putting on police officers to actually observe the stop and frisk. >> and that's something bloomberg isn't necessarily in favor of, the cameras.

>> right. he is not in favor of that. and -- >> why is he not in favor of this? >> something he is in favor of, for example, we just heard about yesterday, he did a proposal where he wants to now fingerprint and create a new database for people who are in nicha housing, in section eight housing. so this is really about the way that poverty is engineered within certain communities and how that leads to now neutralize certain people. this is a post-9/11 area, full of islamophobia. we have a police commissioner that defends spying on muslims. not even just in new york city or the state of new york, but also as far as connecticut, right? some of my classmates, for example, were spied on by the nypd in connecticut. and so i think that a lot of this is really about social control. i think that a lot of what's underlying this. and yet, our mayor, for example, doesn't want the kind of social control that would monitor the way that police act towards black and brown communities.

and that's pretty scary. >> it's sort of treating communities as suspect, but not wanting the police to have their own action, sort of pre-cleared by the public. we'll talk more about this when we come back. because if the police are watching us, who, indeed, is watching the police? the judge the new york's stop and frisk case has a plan for that. let's get the ball rolling. in houston, coca-cola's club balón rojo, is kicking off fun and fitness on and off the field, with the help of soccer stars. these free clinics, help kids gain confidence in their game, and learn how important it is to get moving every day. it's part of our goal to inspire more than 3 million people, to re-discover the joy of being active this summer. see the difference all of us can make. together.

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[ engine revs ] boat protection people love. now, that's progressive. call or click today. judge schinlin's ruling also included her orders on how the nypd needs to change their policy to make it compliant with the constitution. a series of immediate and long-term reforms, an independent monitor to oversee the changes, town hall style meetings to inform the community and hear their input about the policy. and the officers and precincts with the highest number of stops spend one year equipped with these, body-worn cameras that would create objective records of what happens each time that an officer conducts a stop and

frisk. joining me now from miami is somebody who understands a lot about the law enforcement side of these interactions, robert parker. he's a former director of the miami-dade police officer and currently is a consultant on law enforcement and security. great to talk to you, as always, chief parker. >> it's good to be here, joy. good to see you. >> so talk a little, just about, from the law enforcement side. in a stop and frisk situation, why do officers favor, in general, this policy or this way of conducting investigations? >> well, in the first place, stop and frisk is an issue that's been at heart of america for a lot of years. and of course, the actual case of terry versus ohio came to play back in 1968, at which point it was determined for law enforcement, proper conduct in terms of how to conduct a stop and a frisk. and of course, with the reason for doing that being to satisfy a curiosity or a potential, an individual that a law enforcement officer is focusing on, could be wanted for a crime.

but first, the officer must have an articulatable reason for that stop. in other words, he must suspect him of a crime. and of course that stop must be very brief and when an officer does that, he's doing it in pursuit of something that that individual did. it can't be a general kind of thing that an officer does. it has to be with specific reason, suspected of having committed or going to commit a crime. and of course in the frisk aspect are the ability for the officer to temporarily detain them, put their hands on them. this is, of course, for the officer's safety. and again, you must have a reason to think that that individual is armed. so it's a very important aspect or a very important tool for law enforcement officers. but it must, of course, maintain a balance with citizen's rights and citizens' concern. there's a constitutional right in terms of the right to be free

of excessive searches and seizures and to be stopped. and of course, for an officer to do this properly, he must do it within the confines of the law. and for all agencies, every agency from the police academy on up is aware and continuously aware of the fact that all laws must be vfollowed properly in order to successfully either take an individual off the street and prosecute him. >> well, given that, chief parker, and that the judge essentially did believe that the nypd went too far, what did you think of the judge's ruling. >> well, i think if you consider the fact that this has been a long-standing issue with law enforcement, particularly there in new york, i think it goes back to the '60s, the issue of disparate or search and seizure or stop and frisk, with nypd and the thought that it occurred more frequently in minority neighborhoods than others. and when you take a 10, 15-year

span of review and study and you see a disparate utilization of stop and frisk, then, of course, the community, law enforcement, and of course the courts must become concerned. so what you really want is you don't want a situation that continues to escalate and grow in terms of drawing focus on your entity, which is what new york, the largest law enforcement agency in the country, has on its hands. >> and just to come back to the panel for a minute, because to those two points, the first point that chief parker made, meaning that the officer has to have a reasonable suspicion that the person committed a crime, well, in 2012, 532,911 people were stopped. was the assumption that there were 530,000 criminals roaming the streets of new york? and 89% of those were found not to have any contraband of any kind. and the second part of that, this notion it's being misapplied on the notion of

race, 55% of those were african-american, even though the country is 38% black, 32% latino, only 10% white. despite the fact that those white citizens who were stopped were actually found more likely to have contraband. doesn't that just mean that the judge essentially found that the entire policy is the opposite of what chief parker said it should be? >> that's absolutely correct. and this is an important decision, because it acknowledges the role of institutional racism and unconscious bias in police activity in new york city. what we have here is a decision that says -- that looks -- let's take, for example, two specific justifications for stops. high-crime area and furtive movement. what the judge says that furtive movement is overused with blacks and latinos at such a high rate that she could only conclude that police officers are assuming that black people and latino people are more suspicious, even though they're not doing anything wrong, than white people. and that's because of race. >> and the way they're moving

and sort of the way they look. we have a lot more to talk about. unfortunately, we do have to rap. robert parker in miami, thank you so much for joining us this morning. >> thank you for having me, joy. and up next, new york's police commissioner makes his case for stop and frisk. ♪ (woman) this place has got really good chocolate shakes. (growls) (man) that's a good look for you. (woman) that was fun. (man) yeah. (man) let me help you out with the.. (woman)...oh no, i got it. (man) you sure? (woman) just pop the trunk. (man vo) i may not know where the road will lead, but... i'm sure my subaru will get me there. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. ♪ i'm a hard, hard worker and i'm working every day. ♪

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♪ would they laugh after i'd gone? ♪ ♪ or would they pass that wonder on? ♪ ♪ i wonder how it'd change your point of view ♪ ♪ if i gave one to you? ♪ the man in charge of new york city's stop and frisk program, and one of its most ardent defenders is police commissioner, ray kelly. he spoke with "meet the press" moderator david gregory yesterday and here's what he said when asked about the view that stop and frisk is part of a larger trend of universal suspicion without individual evidence in communities of color. >> nobody wants to be stopped. at the very least, you're giving up your time. but we need some balance here. the stark reality is that

violence is happening disproportionately in minority communities and that, unfortunately, is in big cities throughout america. we have record low numbers of -- >> that full interview plus a response from trayvon martin's mother, sybrina fulton and attorney benjamin crump will air on nbc's "meet the press" tomorrow. and sunita, you wanted to talk a little bit about that gentleman, ray kelly. he says, hey, you're just giving up your time and all the crime is happening in communities of color. >> that's absolutely ludicrous, and it's important to know that ray kelly is in very bad company. the on other city that's been found guilty of racial profiling after a trial is joe arpaio, the infamous racist from arizona. these two men refused to settle a case when shown mountains of evidence before trial and even after trial, at least sheriff arpaio is willing to move forward with the reforms. instead, here, ray kelly has filed a notice of appeal. >> i want to point out really

quick. one thing they use most is the fear factor with the numbers, and it's important that people understand that they're just basically misinforming people. the largest drop in murders happened long before the mayor even came into office. in 1990, it was upwards of 2,100. the year the mayor came into office, it was 649. there has been no correlation since the amount of shootings. we have a community safety act which we think is a long-term solution, a permanent solution, unlike the temporary solution that was there, and i hope we get to override the mayor's advisory veto on that. one of the things that is frustrating to me, when people view the reaction to the crime, which is primarily in the black community, the only resource when they want to use an affirmative response is the nypd. if we use those same statistics and say, let's have affirmative proactive programs in jobs, in education, in mental health, everybody says, oh, on the right welcome we can't! we can't do that! we can only use race to describe the problem and to put police

there. we can never use these things to add programs and resources that would actually help. >> i don't think that's necessarily true. and that is this. when i'm in the projects, every week, there are members of that community who are talking to the other members of the community and organizing within themselves to get the drug dealers out. and i will tell you this, joy, most of my drug conspiracy cases, if not all, are from the projects. >> well w, i mean the people, particularly, who are supporting the continued use of profiling. if you ask them to support other programs that use the same data and focus it like a laser on those communities, they say no. they say, we can't have affirmative action programs. we can't have programs that put focus just on race, but they can do that when it comes to the police. >> and i think the main problem, the bottom line is here what judge scheindlin said. and i want to read a little bit from her ruling. this is the bottom line. whatever you think about the effectiveness on different programs to end crime in these communities, she said the stop

and frisk case is not about the effectiveness of stop and frisk on deterring or combatting crime. many police practices may be useful in fighting crime, but because they are unconstitutional, they cannot be used, no matter how effective. >> and i think the judge's ruling corroborates with communities, it corroborates with what kendrick lamar knows in his brilliant album. i'm so happy we started on that note. and i think when people talk about at their dinner tables, about stop and frisk, i want people to talk about racial profiling and racism. it's no secret that 99.8% of the people stopped don't have a gun on them. we have a policy that's supposed to somehow keep us safer when only 0.2% of the time a gun is found. so the question becomes not do we like stop and frisk, it's do we like and endorse and accept

racial profiling? that's a much better place to start. and if so, how much racism are we really willing to put up? it's 2013, not 1965. >> not to mention the notion, the potential that the nypd are assuming there's 600,000 criminals roaming the street of new york a year and then saying this is the safest state in the u.s. >> and trayvon martin -- >> they're wrong on both issues. they're wrong constitutionally and they're wrong on the effectiveness, because you find a weapon and contraband most of the time on the white stops. >> and very rarely even then. thank you so much to juwaane williams. and up next, imagine a business that grows by 830% and imagine how that could be really, really bad. [ school bell rings ] ♪ school's out [ male announcer ] from the last day of school, back to the first. they're gonna take a lot of notes. so make sure they've got a notebook for every subject. this week only,

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history of the so-called war on drugs, the remarks made monday by eric holder could well be remembered as being a tipping point, all because of two words, "too many." >> too many americans go to too many prisons for far too long and for no truly good law enforcement reason. even though this country comprises just 5% of the world's population, we incarcerate almost a quarter of the world's prisoners. >> almost 800%. that's how much the federal prison population has grown since 1980. nearly 7 million. that's how many people in the united states were under some kind of adult correctional supervision at the end of 2011. that's 1 in 34 adults. more than 2.2 million are incarcerated in local, state, and federal prisons. and of that number, 1.57 million inmates are just in state and federal prisons. and of that number, just 219,000 inmates are in federal prisons.

but that's still nearly 40% over capacity. and the ratio of inmates to staff is as much as 5 to 1. why are so many in federal prison? the strict mandatory minimum drug sentencing guidelines holder referred to in his speech are a big reason why. in 2010 alone, more than 70% of federal convictions carrying a mandatory minimum sentence were for drug trafficking crimes. that's nearly 8 in 10. if you happen to get caught with 100 key low grams of american, that's about 220 pounds. federal mandatory minimums require a five-year sentence. but just 500 grams of cocaine gets you the same five-year bid. and a mere 28 grams of crack cocaine gets you the same sentence. attorney general eric holder is now proposing to take those numbers out of the equation, to take the amount of illegal drugs out of, of any kind, out of sentencing procedures for nonviolent federal drug offenders. what all that means for future offenders and those already in the system, next.

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jesse jackson jr. is going to prison. so is his wife, but not at the same time. a u.s. district judge on wednesday sentenced the former democratic congressman from illinois for 30 months to prison for misuse of campaign funds. jackson's wife, sandy, was also sentenced to one year in prison for failing for years to report the campaign money spent on personal luxuries as income. the couple will serve their sentences one after the other, so there is at least one parent at home for their two children. now, this isn't uncommon or preferential treatment. more to the point, it's the humane, better thing to do. attorney general eric holder took a big step towards better on monday, when it comes to low-level drug crimes, by proposing serious sentencing reform, something that pretty much everyone is in favor of, even alec. yes, the american legislative exchange counsel, the driving force behind so much extreme

right-wing legislation in congressional politics backed a bill earlier this month that would give judges discretion to reduce statutory minimum sentences. so even alec is for making our justice system more sensible, who could be against it? believe it or not, we can think of a few. so, back to our panel again. we have seema and sunita still with us. there are people who oppose this idea of changing mandatory minimum sentences. >> well, you're talking about paul gosser, right, who was all up in eric holder's face after fast and furious went down, so he has his own political agenda and motivation. but, generally, it seems that conservatives are pretty happy about it because of the ridiculous amounts of money we'll be saving. >> right, what about prosecutors? in your job, does the idea of discretion change the way you do your job. when you're charging someone with a crime, do you have in the back of your mind, this is a low-level drug dealer, but if i change him with "x," the mandatory minimum kicks in. does that change the way you do your job? >> yes, because now on some

level, the prosecutors have some discretion. because the amount of drugs won't be in the charging instrument. so at that point, the prosecutor is left to consider other factors like mission in terms of, is there community service, is there a program. but the prosecutor also has to look at, was the person a manager or a supervisor in a conspiracy or drug organization. is there any violence alleged? was a weapon involved? so both the judge and the prosecutor in this case get to open their eyes to who the defendant really is, as opposed to just an amount of drugs. >> so that doesn't always work that way, obviously. we've been covering a lot on this show, the case of clarence aaron. this is a young man who's seeking clemency since 1993. he got three life sentences for merely introducing a college friend whose roommate, or a college friend who had a relative in the drug trade, to another person in the drug trade. that transaction happened. he got three life sentences. he got the longest sentence of the three people. are mandatory minimums at all

doing what seema said, where they're allowing the prosecutor and the judge to think about it, before they charge and before they proceed? >> no. i mean, this is a tragic case of a young man who's now in his 40s, and it's just outrageous that in this country, we would allow something like this to happen. mandatory minimums don't make anyone safer. they just cause a prison glut. and it's a waste of taxpayer resources. i think seema's right, many conservatives and people on the right, who we would think would be against this kind of change, are actually a little bit muted in their response, which is great. and i think that what we're seeing around the country, it's not just on the federal level, but even within the states. certain states are starting to do away with mandatory minimums and three strikes you're out laws, which is a great improvement and will not only improve the use of taxpayer resources, but will go a long way towards diminishing the warehousing of black and brown people in this country. >> and that's interesting,

because if you noticed, while the federal prisons are expanding, they're operating under 40%, above capacity now, the state jail and prison system has been reduced, so it seems that the feds are looking at the states and saying, maybe that's how we should run our system now. more alternative to incarceration programs. more probation, because let me tell you something, joy. my goal as a criminal defense attorney is keep the client out of prison. going to prison changes your life. it changes everything. there is no coming back. if a crime, goes to jail, and does whether it's a few months or even a year, even a little more. they have more chance to rehabilitate themselves. >> all right. well, thank you so much to seema iyer and sunita patel. coming up, in different parts of the country, communities are running out of water and it's because of something we're doing. we could stop, but we don't want to.

that's next. more nerdland at the top of the hour. a-a-a.

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[ male announcer ] see how the duck's lessons are going at aflac.com welcome back. i'm joy reid in for melissa harris-perry. a shortage of water in the state of texas has left residents thirsty, frustrated, and saying what the frac. according to recent reports, the process of hydraulic fracking, more commonly known as fracking, which is used as oil extraction, is making the drought problem in the lone star state much worse. these areas in red that you're seeing on the map are parts of texas that are experiencing extreme and exceptional drought. the drought problem has become so bad that at least one texas resident is actually wishing for a natural disaster to help. rancher buck owens told the guardian newspaper that, quote, we've got to get floods. we've got to get a hurricane to move up in our country and just saturate everything to replenish the aquifer. while fracking makes up less

than 1% of the water use in texas, in certain counties, according to a university of texas study, fracking uses up 50% of the water supply. but before we go any further, just what is fracking? i'm going to leave that explanation to "all in's" chris hayes, who not only explained the process, but had some cool animation made for his documentary, "the power of politics," which aired last night on msnbc. >> the process begins by drilling down thousands of feet into the tough shale layer. the drill line goes vertical and then horizontal through the rock, sometimes as far as a mile. then, under high-pressure water, chemicals and sand are pumped into the line, forcing fractures in the rock, releasing the oil, which is then pumped to the surface. this ingenious technology is termed hydraulic fracturing, or more commonly, fracking, and has led to a modern-day oil rush. >> and while millions of gallons of water are required for each fracking job, most of the water used in hydraulic fracturing gets lost, with only 20 to 25%

of the water recovered, and the rest becoming waste. take a look. >> waste water gushes up and gets stored for eventual disposal. all should be good, until trouble finds a way in. a tear finds the way into the lining of the waste pit. poisonous vapors find the way into your lungs, and cancer-causing chemicals find the way into your glass. >> now, proponents of fracking note that the economic benefits that it provides in the form of jobs, along with evidence that hydraulic fracturing has contributed to reduced carbon emissions. while those may be good things, it is not the whole picture. because people across the country are being asked at an increasing rate to weigh the benefits and consequences of fracking and decide between their wallets and their water. not to mention their well-being. joining me from texas is luke metzger, director of environment texas, a statewide environmental advocacy organization. and at the table, josh fox, director and producer of the

documentary's "gasland" and "gasland 2," which look at the domestic gas drilling boom. debora dennis, a texas native who lives in dryden, new york, and successfully fought with her fellow residents against a big oil company who wanted to frac within their town's limits. phaedra ellis lampton, ceo of green for all, an organization that is dedicated to improving the lines of all americans through a clean energy economy, and luni blake, a consulting firm with clients in the oil and gas industry. i want to go first to luke, and give us a sense of just how bad the drought problem is in texas right now. >> sure, joy. right now, as the map showed is, about 98% of the state is suffering from some form of drought conditions. we have about 60% -- our reservoirs are only at 60% of the capacity. we have about 30 communities that the state expects to run out of water by the end of the year. drought has caused about $8

billion in damages to our economy, 300 million trees died, rivers have run dry, impacting wildlife, including fish and endangered whooping cranes. and it's had a real toll. we're in a crisis right now in texas with this drought. >> and luke, you blame this on fracking? i mean, could there be other causes? >> sure. well, the crisis is caused by the drought, but it's made worse by the wasteful water use required for fracking. >> okay. and i want to turn to you, debora. you're a texas native, right? even though now you're in new york and we're going to talk about the new york case. but how has fracking changed your home state of texas? how has that technology changed? because, obviously, the economic benefits are very attractive to communities who need jobs. >> right. and, you know, my experience has been, i lived in texas, i grew up there, and when i go back there to visit my family, the landscape is completely different. when i fly into dallas-ft. worth airport, you just see the land

is scarred with these frac pads. and it is just a completely different place than it was when i grew up. the drought is affecting all the farmers and ranchers around there. they're having to sell their herds, they can't feed them. this has impacted my family. and to take this water out of the water cycle, it's using that water and it's actually making it to where it is not usable again, by adding these chemicals. and that's just, that's a terrible thing to do, when the state is experiencing this drought. >> and your movie, "gasland," the idea that you could light your water is the most visible image. what people are talking about, essentially, is that the fracking process uses a lot of water, but the actual fluid that's being pumped into the ground is 98% water and sand, which sounds pretty benign. but it's that other 2%, i guess, that is at issue. you're talking about anti-bacterial agents and clay

stabilizer and cross linkers, things i don't even know what they were. >> you don't want this in your drinking water. it's important to define this. the industry will come out and say, we don't use that much water, a golf course uses more. but when you take the water permanently out of the hydrological cycle, it means you're facing water bankruptcy. when you take that water down into the ground and it never comes back up, it's different than a hydrological cycle. in fracking, you're losing that water permanently. it's stuck down there. and when you're talking about a drought that's caused, in part, by climate change, and we know that natural gas means another 50 years of burning fossil fuels and an enormous amount of leakage of methane into the atmosphere, which is a very potent greenhouse gas, you're talking about accelerating global warming. you're losing the water down into the substrata and it's never coming back out, and at the same time you're worsening conditions that led to the drought in the first place. >> and i want to bring you in

here. because obviously the economic argument for fracking is that, you know, you can produce jobs. but how does the industry argue against what you're hearing here, which is that the cost is too high, in terms of the environment, because you have global warming compounding problems like drought. >> first of all, i think we need to take a step back. 1% of the water is being used by the gas industry. 99% is being used somewhere else. why are we quibbling over 1%? >> well, if the 1% is causing significant environmental damage, if you go back to that an maimation animation, the idea that people feeling they are being poisoned by the outcomes of fracking, even if it is 1% of the water use, is the toll on potential health and the water supply still too high to pay for the economic benefits you get back? >> you're starting with an assumption that people are being poisoned and that water is being

poisoned. i testified once in front of the assembly and i was talking about pack waste. how are people getting poisoned by this water. the animation over there showed somebody drinking a glass of some poisonous substance or the other. i don't know who would drink water, if it comes through your tap and it's already, you know, got something in it. that's a pathway that's incomplete, okay? that means people are not being exposed. that having been said, yes, the industry has had issues where they've had gas migration move into people's water, and i think that it's obviously, when it happens. >> can i just say that i think the challenge is, the people that pay the consequences of water that they can't drink from their faucets is people that can't afford bottled water and the problem for me with natural gas is that it is essentially the same problem with other fossil fuels, but only made tenfold worse, which is we know who's likely to drink that water. it used to be just people of color in urban areas. now it's white poor people in urban areas.

so what we're saying is, we know -- i mean, i think what's so hard for me is 1%, taking that chance is poor people and people who are desperate for jobs. and, you know, i don't -- you know, i heard people talking about other things. and for me, it's just what's right and wrong. are we going to sacrifice the health and well-being of people who can least afford it, so that other people can have cheaper fuel. and i think we deserve better in this country. >> i think we should let luke speak to that. this is what you're fighting, luke. this is the issue for you in texas. is that your organization is saying that that cost is too high for the people that you represent. >> that's right. and the fact is that in 2011, fracking required the use of about 26 billion gallons of water. that's enough water to fill up 40,000 olympic-sized swimming pools. so this is no drop in the bucket. and that water is especially being used in the most drought-prone parts of the state. and it's caused some, you know, ranchers' wells to run dry. and as josh mentioned, this is unlike forms of agriculture or other water use. this water is removed forever,

from our water cycle. so the 1% figure is a red herring. you know, this is an enormous use of water. and the technology is available to reuse and recycle some of this water, but the oil and gas industry isn't even been willing to do that, according to the texas oil and gas association, in the barnette shale part of the state, which is around dallas-ft. worth, less than 5% of the water is even recycled. so it's a big problem here in texas. >> okay. i want everybody to stay with us. because we do want to talk more about this issue. i want to give uni a chance to respond to what luke said. so everybody, stay there. and when we come back, we'll talk about the little town that took on big oil and fracking and won. is like hammering. riding against the wind. uphill. every day. we make money on saddles and tubes.

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call it the little town that could. in 2011, rural dryden in upstate new york, population, 14,500, banned hydraulic fracking, prompting the anchills exploration corporation to shoe. the energy company wanted the court to force the company to accept the fracking. not only did the town fight back, it garnered the support of 20,000 people to support them in their fight. in may of this year, a lower court affirmed the decision that dryden had the right to ban oil and gas exploration in their towns. but this fight is far from over, as norse energy has now filed papers to have the latest decision reversed. and deborah, this is your town of dryden. and essentially at issue is

whether or not once the private company had gone to private land owners and including farm owners, and bought up the leases, whether that could be enforced by the state, even the locality said, we don't want this practice. >> so new york is a home rule state. and basically, that means that local governments have the right to, and the jurisdiction, to say what they're going to do with land use. and they do that through zoning. and so what dryden did was they passed a law through their zoning ordinance that said that they do not allow heavy industrial uses, such as hydraulic fracturing. so, the ban is actually to preserve our community character, and we are very rural area. and this is to, really to embrace what we have as a comprehensive plan to stay as a rural area, and to preserve that, that the people there really enjoy and that's why we live there. >> and i want to go back to josh on this -- on luke to this, i'm

sorry. luke, the context, i was reading a piece in mother jones that talked about kind of the difference about what's happening in dryden and what's happening in texas, where you don't have this sort of home rule applying. where people are having wells near their basketball courts and near their schools and this is just happening and people don't feel they have the ability or the right to stop them. what remedies is your organization seeking to give people what the people in dryden were able to get, basically a say over whether fracking takes place. >> sure. well, we haven't had any towns ban fracking in texas, but we have had some communities step up and adopt some very tough ordinances to really protect public health and safety of the community, like flowermound, texas, and others in the dallasfodalla dallas-ft. worth area. dallas is considering strong restrictions on drilling. because it's happening right in the middle of people's neighborhoods and near schools and homes and playgrounds. so some communities have stepped up to try to adopt restrictions.

the oil and gas industry in response has tried the to get the texas legislature to prevent communities from adopting these kind of ordinances. but we definitely encourage communities to take up their rights and adopt some protections to help limit the impacts of drilling to the community. >> and i want to bring uni back in here. because this is a question of community who is, and we were talking about in the break, may not really know what fracking is, but they have a feeling they just don't like it. there is a piece that talks about how many people actually know what fracking is. and the vast majority of people, something like 40%, haven't heard at all about fracking. really don't know what it is. so it's a technology that is sort of foreign to people. they don't know what it is, but there's a sense of, you know, i don't want this in by backyard. do you think that's based on founded or basscience or an unfounded fear? >> you mentioned feeling. when people don't know something, they tend to go with their feelings, like i said. but the gap is not so much, how

can i put it, i think it's just the inability, the industry didn't go ahead and really educate people about it. i could use my town as an example, which is pretty close to middlefield. when the gas company came to drill a vertical well, they were required by the state not to really inform anybody of anything. and they went ahead and run about 20 trucks through the town to go fracture a site. and after that, you know, the community complained and there was a lot of, you know, pushback. and the next permit that came out, the state required the company to educate the criminals, to go to the town board and talk to the town board. but because the ship had sailed down that road and people are already afraid, and trying to talk about this technical issue and trying to put it in a form where people can understand, is really difficult.

you sat here and said it was really hard for you to understand all the different nuances in it. i usually try to focus on my part of that pie, because that's where my education is. but we have people like josh, whose, i don't even know what his education background is, telling people about engineering, technology, and stuff. the cartoon you showed earlier was such a misrepresentation -- >> but can we -- if it's the gas company itself -- >> i'm a reporter. >> if it's the gas company -- >> and i've been reporting on this issue for five years. we have evidence that fracking causes water contamination. we have evidence, considerable evidence, that fracking causes air pollution. we have 25% of fourth graders in the barnett shale currently have asthma. that's three times the state average. we have evidence that fracking destroys communities. we have evidence that fracking contaminates our government with an enormous amount of political influence. these are all things that have been widely reported on, widely reported on. but what we don't have is a sense of what "we" is.

and when we're talking about here about oil and gas companies, the economic benefits, what we get out of this, i'm telling you we don't get benefits. these are multi-national oil and gas companies that are causing human rights violations in our own backyard. and somehow we have adopted them as our economic boom. well, that is not what happens in these places. these places get destroyed. their water resource is destroyed, as you noted, in this town, one town in texas that we're looking at. dryden is an example of what's happening all across new york state. new yorkers have fought off the oil and gas industry, which is a foreign industry, coming to new york state, to come to toxify and degrade the landscape. i know because i'm a member of a frontline company. the property right across my house was leased. we fought them off and that lease was canceled. but if they were drilling across the street, my property values would go to zero. these things are not about me or

my education. these things are being reported on, wildly, all across this nation and all across this -- to deny that they're happening is simple denial. >> but it's -- >> phaedra? >> first, i find it offensive, because i think the fact -- this isn't a question of -- i completely respect your ph.d, i respect your education -- >> my masters. >> or your masters. but i studied economics, and i think to say that, to me, it is not just a debate about the process, but to debate the process would be to ignore the outcome. >> okay. >> right? and what we are not debating is, would you -- do you believe that people's water system isn't being destroyed? >> i don't believe that. >> you don't believe -- so when you see -- what do you think is happening? >> i quantify things. >> not quantify. let's just say -- >> i'm a quantified thinker. so when you say people, do you mean 1 out of 100, 2 out of 100? >> right, right.

>> but -- >> no, if you look at some of the wells being developed, there are some that are perfect. >> but -- >> it's about probability. >> it is about probability. >> let me ask you this question. would you want one of these wells, literally, in your own backyard. >> yes, i would. >> and you have no fear this would affect the health of your family? >> no, and you know why? because i utilize natural gas products. i utilize oil in my car that drove me here, that was from a fractured well. and i wear -- >> but do you believe, however, that if deborah does not one of these wells in her backyard that her community has the right to say no. that whatever the oil company would say in educating people about them, if people don't want them, do they have a right to say no? >> i believe people have a right to say no. but based on real evidence. >> but you said it's 1 in 100. and the thing that is just so hard for me to understand and to accept, is what you're saying to me, the scientific data says

that we sacrifice 1 for the other 99, and i'm not willing to sacrifice the 1. and that's the difference. the 1 is not someone in beverly hills. the reason that african-american kids are more likely to have asthma, the reason latino kids are more likely to have asthma, the reality is, the consequences of that one is not a random, scientific one, that one is a kid of color, an older person of color, or increasingly, a poor white person in texas. and that is not the values of this country. >> okay. hold on a second. because one of those ones is represented by luke. luke is representing people in that very situation. luke, i want to give you one more word, because we do have to let you go. so luke metzger, give us your final take on this from the point of view of people who are represented by this. whether they understand the science or not, they don't want it. >> that's right. i mean, clearly there are lots of concerns by people in texas about risk of contamination, the air pollution, the huge amount of water use. there's also a growing concern about the huge economic costs from fracking. so, for example, the state of texas estimates we're going to

have to spend about $400 million on infrastructure to provide water to the oil and gas companies for fracking. to frac a single well takes hundreds of trucks carrying water. the trucks that damage our roads at a cost of about $1 billion a year to repair. there are real costs to the taxpayers, the rate payers of texas that come with fracking that don't get enough attention. >> we're going to continue this debate on the other side of the break, but for now, luke metzger, thank you very much for joining us from austin, texas. >> thanks, joy. when we come back, we'll bring in some celebs. yoko ono will join us, but we'll continue this hot debate at the table. [ female announcer ] when they wake up dry in pampers, mornings have more tickles, kisses, and cuddles.

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♪ boo! i am the ghost of meals past. when you don't use pam, this is what you get. residue. [ female announcer ] bargain brand cooking spray leaves annoying residue. that's why there's pam. the bottom line is that there's sort of a campaign of misinformation trying to tell people that fracking, hydraulic fracturing, is a clean

alternative to coal or to other fossil fuels, where the reality is, it's just dirty. >> we are being made aware because of things like hydrofracking and tar sands and mountaintop removal of the danger of going further down the road, of these kinds of extractions. >> to say yes to life and say no to fracking. >> that was sean lennon, mark ruffalo, and yes, yoko ono, who was here in her own special way. while they are many of those protesting against fracking, they are already celebrities who can garner attention. the everyday citizen doesn't have that luxury when it comes to fracking. deborah, your town did mount an effort against two oil companies what had spent money to go ahead and lease and do fracking in your community. do you have the sense that this sets a precedent for other communities who do want to stop

this, and you also wanted to talk about the fact that your town is doing something proactive as well. >> absolutely. sympathies something that is giving courage to other towns. there are many small towns in new york and across the country that have small budgets. and the thought of an oil and gas company suing them is very scary. so we were very lucky in that we had a lot of community support and people said, actually, at the hearing, if they sue us, that's okay. we will -- we've got your back. that's what we said to our town board. and sure enough, after the first lawsuit at the local level, we were joined by earth justice, who came in and is working pro bono for us, which our little town probably could not have been able to afford the legal support that we had. and so we have this wonderful legal support. so this is giving other towns the courage to do this. and it's spreading, as josh said, across new york. we have -- i don't know what the number is. it grows every day of the number

of town that have enacted bans andmo andmore moratorium. this is a local grassroots effort. and many of the people who were in our organization, the dryden resources awareness coalition, we didn't even know each other before this issue came about. and we've gotten together and did a wonderful petition drive. we got out in the community, met a lot of people. we're heavily involved in the election cycle, which is very important, and i want to encourage other towns, that this is where you can make a difference, is you get the people on your town and county governing bodies, that can -- that will support these issues. and they understand that fossil fuels is a dead-end street. and we are in trouble with climate change. we're seeing the effects of this. and we have to do something. and i understand uni was saying, you know, you drive here in a car, you use natural gas. well, we have to, as a

population, to stop doing that. we have to find alternatives. and in our small town, and actually in tomkins county, we have started a program based on the solarized model. it's called solarized tomkins se, se for southeast, because it covers the southeast part of the county. and we are putting solar panels on homes at a price that no one has seen before. so people can afford them. >> and isn't that the issue, phaedra, i want to go back to you. it isn't just the issue of fracking, it's the replace that we're trying to replace one fossil fuel extraction method with another. if you look at the map of oil and gas wells across the united states, and despite the fact they're not doing it in this one town, this is nationwide. we're not looking to walk away from fossil fuels, we're just looking for one that's somewhat more cleaner. >> and we are not just not looking away, we are investing. the united states government gave $8 billion in subsidies to these companies last year, the most profitable companies in the united states, the most

profitable companies in the world. it's not like they're just doing this at a cost that is free. we're actually giving $8 billion a year. and in addition, it's not even the smartest technology. what we know is that when we invest in clean energy, three times the amount of more jobs are created. we also know it doesn't destroy the health of our children. so the real question is, what will it take for us to actually innovate in the technologies that are growing and the technologies that actually are beneficial to our communities, and there's some amazing models. there's crowd sourcing with solar tiles. there's, you know, incredible people of color who are doing stuff in washington, d.c. with businesses. so the real question is, can we create the political will to invest in the one that makes the most sense. >> very quickly, uni, a response? very quickly? >> what about -- i hear us talking about all these negative things, you know, about how -- all these children suffering and things. what about the people, the rural people and the farmers? >> yeah, who increasingly are actually creating their own forms of energy, because they've been depleted by fossil fuels. i think it's a great point, when you actually look at places like

in idaho, we saw a wonderful model where they're actually figuring out how to do community solar. i don't think what you're saying is true. >> unfortunately, we have to leave it there. we may have to continue this on twitter, as a matter of fact, because everybody still has more to say. thank you so much to josh fox, uni blake, thank you all. after the break, we're getting a lesson in objective evidence. my letter is next. that's a good choice. let me show you some faucets to go along with that. with the latest styles and guaranteed low prices, you can turn the bath you have into the bath you want. good choice. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. right now, this cordova vanity combo is a special buy. just $199.

there are some people who, for their own sake, should take a very deep breath. before they talk about race. just to think it through. like, you know, before telling a group of howard university students that they'd be republicans if only they knew their black history. or before hiring, co-authoring a book, and then having to awkwardly part with a neoconfederate who calls himself the southern avenger. or before admitting that you're not super on board with the civil rights act. this week, the right's new pa s

poster child for awkward race talk had this to say about north carolina's new voter restrictions and their likely impact on black voters. according to louisville radio station, he said, "i don't think there is objective evidence that we are precluding african-americans from voting any longer." and that's why my letter today is to u.s. senator rand paul. dear senator paul, it's me, joy. so here's the thing. i get that you're trying to being the man in the gop who steps out there on race, and to your point, there are no more, quote, bizarre and on suabsurd literacy tests from the jim crow era. as you said on wednesday, that was an abomination, that's why we needed the voting rights act, but that's not showing your i.d. but senator, if it's evidence you want that voter i.d. laws preclude african-americans from voting, well, then, here we go. up to 25% of african-american adults don't have a photo i.d. compare that to 9% of white adults who don't have i.d.

among young african-american adults, the number may be even higher. in wisconsin, for example, one study found that only 22% of young african-american men had a valid driver's license. poll workers are more likely to ask young black voters for photo i.d., even in states without voter i.d. laws. and young black adults are four times more likely to say that a lack of i.d. prevented them from voting in 2012. and that's just voter i.d. the north carolina law that you were asked about, the worst in the nation, does a lot more than require certain forms of i.d. at the polls. it also slashes early voting by a full week. now, you might say that doesn't sound like discrimination, but 70% of african-americans who voted this north carolina last year voted early, 70%. they also lacked voter i.d. on the same they day vote. don't take my word for it, look at tbtive evidence from florida. in 2011, that state cut six days

from early voting, including the sunday before election day, when black churches typically urge their congregations to head to the polls after services. the result, uncon shenably long lines at the polls last november. some people waited six hours to vote, and the average wait time in florida overall was 45 minutes, three times the national average. some of the worst lines were on the saturday before election day, which also happened to have the highest minority turnout. and that led dartmouth researchers to declare that the cuts to early votes disproportionately affected minority voters. those researchers estimated that more than 200,000 people who wanted to vote didn't because of the long lines. and it wasn't just florida. african-american voters throughout the country waited, on average, almost twice as long to vote as white voters. senator, feel free to stop me any time. i just want to make sure that you get enough objective evidence. and by the way, african-americans are also disproportionately precluded from voting by the criminal code. black adults are more than four

times more likely to be disenfranchised due to a felony conviction, laws that happen to be a vest tinlg of the post-civil war area, when many states tailored felony disenfranchise laws to get around the fifth amendment. and in florida, 25% of black adults can't vote due to a felony conviction. but you said it yourself. on the same day and in the same speech posteded on the same day and in the same speech postede on the louisvill courier's website where you said, we don't try to stop african-americans from voting anymore. >> so a lot of our young people, and particularly a lot of young people of color, are caught up in making mistakes with drug crimes, nonviolent drug crimes when they're kids, but it ruins the rest of their lives, because the judges can't have discretion. they get convicted of felonies, makes it harder to get a job, and i think it's something that isn't just. the ultimate outcome is not just. uh i know people who have permanently lost their second amendment rights, their voting rights, from making a youthful

mistake with drugs. >> spoken like a guy who took a deep breath before he spoke. sincerely, joy. right now, 7 years of music is being streamed. a quarter million tweeters are tweeting. and 900 million dollars are changing hands online. that's why hp built a new kind of server. one that's 80% smaller. uses 89% less energy. and costs 77% less. it's called hp moonshot. and it's giving the internet the room it needs to grow. this&is gonna be big. hp moonshot. it's time to build a better enterprise. together.

using night-vision goggles to keep an eye on my spicy buffalo wheat thins. who's gonna take your wheat thins? i don't know. an intruder, the dog, bigfoot.

could you get the light? [ loud crash ] what is going on?! honey, i was close! it's a yeti! [ male announcer ] must! have! wheat thins! 400,000. that is the number of rape kits in the united states containing critical dna that are left untested in labs across the country. imagine being brutally attacked and going through the process of providing samples of hair, skin, and clothing for investigators, only to have the samples collect dust for decades. this is a national problem, but some cities are making progress in cleaning out the backlog. less than one year ago, the ohio attorney general began the sexual assault kit testing initiative, and so far the dna results have led to 50 indictments led to unsolved rape cases in cuyahoga county, which includes cleveland. detroit prosecutor kim worthy found more than 11,000 untested rape kits in a warehouse in 2009. since then, 600 kits that have

been tested and prosecutors have discovered evidence in 21 -- of 21 serial rapists. rosa picket actually lived this nightmare in the small, predominantly black and overwhelmingly poor town of robbins, illinois. she came forward with her story after the cook county sheriff's office discovered that more than 200 rape kits had been collected in robbins since the mid-'70s that were never used to solve crimes. rosa was raped 36 years ago. her rape kit was lost and never been found. her attacker, never apprehended. now she's working to make sure that other survivors get the justice that she never did. and joining us from chicago is the chief of policy and communications in the cook county sheriff's office, cara smith, and the brave sexual assault survivor, whose story i just shared, rosa pickett, thank you both for joining me. >> good morning, thank you. >> good morning. >> and cara, i want to start with you and ask why it was so important to the sheriff's office, the cook county sheriff's office, who really isn't -- doesn't have

supervisory jurisdiction over robbi robbins, to do this work. >> well, it goes to the heart of getting justice for the survivors, and what we found in robbins was particularly troubling, because it wasn't so much that kits had not been tested or analyzed, they had been, but they had never been investigated. so it was a particularly unconscionable discovery we made, and have been working diligently since then to try to bring some justice in whatever form possible to these survivors. >> and cara, tell us a little bit about the robbins police department. because this is a very poor community, and the police department may not even be equipped to do the job that they should have done with these investigations. >> right. it's a great question, and a very troubling situation that we have. and many robbins and other suburban cook county municipalities, when the municipality cannot afford a full-time police department, as is the case in robbins, they have an all part-time police

force. so they lack the capacity, frankly, to conduct thorough investigations of violent crime, including sexual assault, which is a, must be handled in a very efficient, with very specialized training, very victim-sensitive way. and that has not occurred with rosa and other victims that we have been working closely with. and it is just an unbelievable situation that we're facing and certainly robbins is being cooperative with this, but it really exposes a much larger problem in terms of how we ensure protection for people when the communities they live in are distressed and, so it's this very important issue of sexual assault, as a jumping off point for many other issues that need to be addressed. >> and rosa, first of all, i want to commend you, you are very brave to come forward. so many victims of sexual assault simply don't feel that they can speak up or have a voice. what prompted you to come

forward? i believe it was at a community meeting, and put your hand up and say, you know what, i was a victim here, and i want justice, even though it was so long ago. >> that's exactly how i felt, and i just wanted to know, they had found my kid amongst the other 52 kits that they had found, but, unfortunately, my kit wasn't there. so i wanted to know where it was at. i really wanted it found. i wanted to know what happened in the investigation, why it wasn't investigated and -- >> and you were just a teenager when this happened, rosa. what was your sense when the police officer came and talked to you and your mom. did you get a sense that this officer cared about your case and had a determination to find your attacker? >> i was 17 years old and when my rape kit was done at the hospital, the police came there and he took pictures of me, we did a description, they did the

rape kit, and being at that age, you know, i knew that if the police had seen the pictures, i felt in my heart that they would want to catch that person. you know, they seen what he had done to me. i really felt that they was going to do their job, at that time. but, unfortunately, as time went past, i realized that nothing became of it and nothing was done, so here i sit. pleading with other women to come forth and you know, not be in the situation that i'm in today. >> well, rosa, thank you -- >> help themselves. >> you've become in many ways the face of this drive in your town of robbins and we really appreciate you coming forward. thank you so much to both of you, rosa pickett, and kara smith, thank you. >> thank you. >> you're welcome. >> for more on this story, you can visit thegrio.com. and after the break, gang life, teen pregnancy. one man says he has the solution to a range of problems for

america's young people, and the solution is simple. our foot soldier is next. "stubborn love" by the lumineers did you get my email? i did. so what did you think of the house? did you see the school ratings? oh, you're right. hey babe, i got to go. bye daddy! have a good day at school, ok? ...but what about when my parents visit? ok. i just love this one... and it's next to a park. i love it. i love it too. here's our new house... daddy! you're not just looking for a house. you're looking for a place for your life to happen.

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paul says sports the solution. he says sports is the answer for youth. he's responsible for bringing that to 25 million kids. he's the founder of up to us. it promotes hundreds of youth sports programs across the country. it focuses on the motional well being of young folks that participate. this summer the program graduated another 44 coaches from its training institute in new orleans. for his work and supporting the health and well being of america's children he's our foot soldier this week. he joins me live. thank you for being here. >> thank you.

>> what's the connection between sports and the avoidance of the negative pa ththologies. >> the reason we train 500 coach s to have an adult who is a role model, who cares about you. the president said in a speech there's too much negative reenforcement. what are we going about positive reenforcement for our kids? we believe by training a coach, kids look up to their coaches. everyone who plays sports knows it. why aren't we building a national work force of coaches. they're out there and ready to inspire kids and communities from one end of this country to the next and show them they do matter and they should set up goals and can be successful.

>> there's so many other temptations and kids are pressured into negative behavior. how do you make that more attractive than the negative things going on? >> that's the greatest question because i think it speaks to one of the aspects of why sports is the solution. when you look at kids in every community and you look at the types of things that they themselves choose to participate in it's unfortunately where we have as many broken schools and a lot of other challenges facing. it's not necessarily the classroom. we need to give the kids chance to make those choices and one of the biggest choices kids make is i want to be part of a sports team. if somebody said let's play basketball or field hockey, kids choose to be a part of it. the problem isn't getting the motivation of getting the kid,

the problem is the lack of programs where youth issues are involved. >> how do you get involved? >> go to our website, uptous2.org. if you want to coach and make this a greater country, we want to hear from you. we want you coaching and inspiring young kids lives. >> thank you for joining me. be sure to come back tomorrow. i'll be right here again in this very chair. right now it's time for weekends with alex witt. >> i'll will right here waiting for you too. letters from 16-year-old hannah anderson found in her kidnapper's home. a judge rules a child is not

allowed to be called messiah. the legal battle over what some are calling overstepping. why one new jersey town thinks they can raise the town 11 feet to avoid hurricanes. will it work? ♪ i want to be forever young [ male announcer ] we don't just wear clothes. we live life in them. keep clothes looking newer 50% longer with downy. accomplishing even little things can become major victories. i'm phil mickelson, pro golfer. when i was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis, my rheumatologist prescribed enbrel for my pain and stiffness, and to help stop joint damage. [ male announcer ] enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders, and allergic reactions have occurred. before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are common.

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in egypt, a mosque under siege. almost 200 killed during a day of rage and now they're calling for a week of daily nationwide protests. republican officials move forward with its nbc, cnn debate boycott. why mining for gold in ghana is turning into tv gold for the discovery channel. the first of its kind 75-year study on life happiness. what is it that makes us happy? it may surprise you. hello, w